I share your enthusiasm for truth regardless of its source. Despite the comments and quoted references that say Joseph taught reincarnation, I do not see any of his doctrine that teaches it. D&C 88 dates to 1833, which is long before JS was revealing/discussing reincarnation related doctrine. I am a witness that these promises are true. Where is the God of hope in the thought of being consigned to an eternal damnation with no way to progress? Seems to me that there is as much evidence for this reincarnation doctrine as there is for the Heavenly Mother doctrine. For example, in 1860, Orson Pratt wrote, "I heard brother Young say that Jesus had a body offlesh and bones, before he came (to earth and) he was born of the Virgin Mary, it was so contrary to every revelation given." It is grasped in a such a powerful symbol the baptism. One of the most effective teaching tools for me comes And now I know that the lower I choose to descend, the more opportunity I will have to ascend higher. I love our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and I know He loves me. to be better than others or have suggested that even if it were a true What he explained can be understood as a spiritual path that one has to walk the path of baptism back home to heavenly father. We also know that there is an opposite to all things. through contrasts. This idea lines up nicely with JS' late teaching that the Sons of God who married the daughters of men in Genesis were resurrected beings who violated celestial laws (see quotation in OP), and, of course, it all lines up with JS' teachings about exaltation to exaltation in his comments about the Holy Ghost and God the Father in the King Follett Sermon, Sermon on the Grove, and other Nauvoo era comments. Again, I hope my sincere curiosity is coming through. Jenimarie, I love your experience and witness. D&C 132:22-25 can easily be interpreted that way: 22For strait is the gate, and narrow the way that leadeth unto the exaltation and continuation of the lives, and few there be that find it, because ye receive me not in the world neither do ye know me. In other words the only people that the Lord doesnt save eventually are those who DO NOT WANT TO BE SAVED. What a wonderful picture with the sun (son) and your picture seen in the Jewish tradition where a day begins when the darkness sets, it shows something that goes so well along with what you said. I should clarify that I approach this issue froma historical perspective. A blog from a faithful member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I am forever grateful to you both and for your ability to enlighten ME!! Thank you for sharing! May the Lord bless you! Hyrum Leslie Andrus was a scholar, teacher, lecturer, and author. As the recent the content of Christian film producers in recent years. Now of course the argument of various forms of platonism in early Mormonism typically comes with it the claim that Joseph ismisreading platonism. In other words I don't believe this theology, andI'm not recommending beliefs or anything along those lines. Well what did the Father do? From the above we can imply that JS believed that all Gods had served as Christs, that all heirs of the Celestial kingdom would serve as Christs as part of their progression from exaltation to exaltation, and that the Holy Ghost would also serve as a Christ. Thank you Eric, Greg and Julie for your Multiple Probations book, essays and podcasts of supporting scripture and history. Thanks for sharing Eric! Greg has perfectly captured my thoughts and feelings as well. It answers many of my questions, How could a god (Lucifer) fall from grace, how could the Savior become who he was in one lifetime, how could I ever make it to the celestial kingdom if my partner wasnt willing to live the gospel. This thesis explains a bunch of odd data points and suggests a straightforward explanation for the origin of Adam-God. Thank you for bravely sharing it here in this public forum. That is, I think the text is inherently ambiguous there. Now the doctrine of multiple probations brings me great peace. Anyways, it soon became apparent that his fruits were not matching what I knew to be honest and true from my own scripture study, and beliefs. Im grateful you shared your experience here! grudge against anyone who does not believe, or who does not want to know more Nor do I believe that a full understanding of Who I Am, in all the Eternal facets of my Being, qualifies me to take responsibility for doing Fathers work in somehow translating this knowledge to another. I am not sure how most people have become exposed to this doctrine. May God continue to inspire you and bless you and your family, you are certainly blessings us! Let's review multiple scriptures that allow us to see things as they really are: 1) The Plan of Happiness. Of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles. Even that though is pretty vague and could easily be taken in terms ofAlma 42:25. to inherit the same glory, the same power and the same exaltation, until you ascend the throne of eternal power the same as those who are gone before. And sorry you got excommunicated! 13:38. Amazing, some of the stuff they came up with. Heather, I love that name for it. With those multiple witnesses I could no longer question or deny what the Savior hadtold me. The doctrine of multiple probations felt natural and right to me as soon as I heard them. That stopped me in my tracks and I didnt know quite how to answer that. So, each new life gives a clean slate, while maintaining our spiritual essence and disposition and propensity for good or evil. I've read a couple of interesting books on reincarnation/multiple mortal probations and I actually really like the idea. Just after the section discussing the Re. specifics with others. Big Florida development project likely worth $40-80B in 30-60 years. Not sure if that group is still active anymore. While belief in this doctrine is unpopular in the Christian world at this time, I would like to share some of the ways it has been a blessing to me. The group is True LDS Deep Doctrines. Address given at the University of Utah Institute of Religion January 10, 1982. Kevin, I know that feeling! Multiple probations is not part of the doctrine of the Church, neither are we claiming that it is. One must review and agree to the rules of the group, established due to a few that join just to create contention and kick against the pricks. About this group Our Purpose: As members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints we want to prepare ourselves for the day of Christ's return. consider to be a blessed gift from God. These ware resurrected Bodies, Violated the Celestial laws. I enjoyed your book very much and reading your essay just now is when I felt enveloped in the calmest, loving peace, and knowing that bore witness that this additional knowledge is indeed true. Especially that your own witness didnt come from a human. We seem to continually become more and more of who and what we are. Then meeting you several years ago in Idaho, i feel our paths have crossed before. felt very final[i]. I can seeJoseph Smith easily deriving reincarnation from several passages in the New Testament. The Savior is crucial to the plan, and only He is the way back no matter how many probations we have had. What I was looking forward to about eternity was the end of suffering. Thank you for sharing this. I don't think the Laub quote you give suggests Laub read the KFD in terms of MMP either. I know you and Julie Row are Great tools in the Lords hand in this last days. Ive wondered about past lives. How does this concept coexist with the idea of eternal families? To go no more out finally made sense; Old Souls (and we have have all known them or ARE one ) finally made sense. In my experience the most important point of the discussion here, which I believe to be among earnest seekers of truth, is being lightly treated by those on this forum but clearly illustrated in your comment. Thank you Kim. Third, there were a lot of other early LDS, some apostles as well who lived closer in time and proximity to Joseph Smith who believed in "multiple mortal probations." D&C 132 on the other hand was dictated in 1843, prime time for this topic. Any comments would be helpful. Libraries. We all have to die to go further. Why the title and what needs to happen to have that title. Mahalo for bringing this to light! I hold the knowledge sacred, personal to my own covenant Multiple Mortal Probations Part II Get link Facebook Twitter Pinterest Email Other Apps November 16, 2018 . He showed us the way how to ascend. Thanks! He has some ideas that are popular among Snufferites (such as some version of multiple mortal probations). That information about Brigham and Heber ordaining each other to the Godhead is crazy stuff. When I was young, I was given a true, but what I now And as this literally happens, every morning is a shadow of what will be in the long term of eternity. known to me. While I do not consider reincarnation to be true, it is clearly an The Mormon scriptures clearly state that meat "should be used, only in times of winter, or of cold, or famine.". I welcome it! I no longer depended on him to get us there. A magnifying glass. He trys to plant these seeds of doubt in my heart mind and spirit..all this does is make me feel closer to my Saviour , the early members of the church in Our Saviors time as well as in Joseph Smiths time , and closer to Joseph Smith and the pure doctrines that he was shown and had and could not share yet, and I am humbled, oh so very humbled to have been trusted with this great knowledge and the peace that it brings to my soul and my spirit and the hope it gives me for my family and my in active children .. to know that I chose in my own personal plan to have this opposition in my life in these last days for my own progression throughout the eternities and I know that that is the same for many of us who believe in this doctrine of multiple probation, may we all be strong enough to stand in and on these truths of further light and knowledge. Multiple Probations is a beautiful doctrine. It j u s t makes sense. Progression for a time and then it is over just doesnt compute for me. Callings Sharing the Gospel Volunteer and Serve Temples Family History. over the airways and fiber lines of our media sources. I have so many follow up questions!! I don't deny one can read it that way, but the more natural reading is that in his first mortality the Father was Christ. Again, I thank you, Greg, Matt and Julie for having the courage to stand and to testify. Couldnt we just come again and again until we got it right? This was part of a long prayer. Scriptures General Conference Come, Follow Me Gospel Library Media Library Music Library Life Help Inspiration. As for the sealing question, I certainly believe that sealings are very important. Men and Women who Valiantly bring this (Exalting Knowledge) to those who wish to ascend. BOISE, Idaho On the ninth day of Lori Vallow Daybell's murder trial, her friend, Melanie Gibb, testified about Lori's beliefs on possession, the first time she met Chad Daybell, and more.Lori Vallow Daybell was charged with multiple counts of first-degree murder and conspiracy to commit murder. Great questions and important ones to ponder on. The LDS Church declined to comment on Snuffer or his movement, but an internal 2015 presentation to the faith's apostles (as provided by the website MormonLeaks) lists the Sandy attorney . but it is necessary to know in the context of my exaltation. I find the idea of multiple probations very interesting and am open to it in a well, why not sort of way. Growing up in the Church, I had the same impressions as you regarding our exaltation. Never at any time in my research and doctrinal interests have zombies, adultery, and murder ever remotely crossed my mind. Do you have a direct link? Given that the content of JS' revelations usually coincide with questions and subjects he is interested in at the time, my best guess is that this interpretation of 88 is probably a stretch. I shouldn't have looked at this thread so late at night, because now I won't be able to delineate all my thoughts on it. That being said I am personally bound by the admonition given in countless times and ways throughout scripture and most clearly in the Doctrine and Covenants 63: 64. Save my name, email, and website in this browser for the next time I comment. I have followed the council of James, that if there are any among us who lack wisdom, that we should ask of God who gives to all men liberally (James 1:5). The purpose was not to claim that it is the doctrine of the Church, as we have no authority in that regard. . Another name who too . I have always know it to be true, the gospel of Jesus Christ, and have never doubted it, no, not even for a second. DRAFT. This LDS doctrine of celestial kingdoms relies heavily on the Bible passage in John 14:2, "In my Father's house there are many mansions," as proof that these kingdoms exist in heaven. It has been reported by those who knew the first prophet of the church that he was at least at one. ??? There is deeper meaning in this i wont go into here but i love and admire both of you and the way you both gracefully and meekly bring about true doctrines to light. Multiple Mortal Probations The final theology on reincarnation on this plane we will look at in this article will be the Brighamite idea of multiple mortal probations (MMP). Alaris Officially, Mormons are supposed to be almost entirely vegetarian. Multiple Mortal Probations (MMP) Eternal Progression, and Progression between Kingdoms The Flag of the Kingdom of God Apostasy Unchangeability of the Doctrines of Salvation and Exaltation Fallibility or Infallibility of Men Appointed as Church Leaders Whether or Not the LDS Church Could Fall into Apostasy Interesting, interpretation. Thank you for this essay, you have a way of expressing your thoughts and knowledge so eloquently and with so much clarity. Joseph well understood multiple probation, but to openly teach it would have meant major upheaval and further loss of members. In the 1840s their polygamous relationship to the Mormon prophet was as secret as his conversion to reincarnation. By . I often commented in Church Sunday School, that, to be considered Noble and Great!! 24This is eternal livesto know the only wise and true God, and Jesus Christ, whom he hath sent. Harold, your thoughts and perspective are priceless. I am so grateful that we have the privilege now of hearing about this and learning more about the mysteries of God. Eventually, a soul could achieve relative perfection and rise to the level of becoming a savior for others. The True and Living Church of Jesus Christ of Saints of the Last Days ( TLC) is a breakaway sect of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS Church). idea as crazy or ridiculous. It is the explanation for why some of those I know and love 9. car accident on meadowbrook parkway today. Having experienced the intense glory of Gods We know that there is opposition in all things. Do you believe sealing ordinances still exist? I started to realize that multiple probations is one of the big themes in the scriptures. When we get to where Jesus is, he will be just as far ahead of us again in exaltation." Thank you!! I do not believe I am alone in these sentiments. I want to move forward and progress to the next grade. I could discern truth because I have long since done what you and Julie ask us to do almost every podcast. However this is no profound than all cows participating in the form of cowness for Platonists. I cant mention this topic to my family, friends, or post about it on any platform, without incredible hurtful persecution. It also appears to be welcomed and seriously considered among others of Dorthea, with what youve written, Im embarrassed to say I hadnt considered your insights on baptism in the context as a symbol for MP, but I feel you are wise to have picked up on it. "sooner or later; they will be thrown back to the native element from which they originated, to be worked over again, and be prepared to enjoy some sort of a kingdom (glory)." They witness to the same insights I have also had on the matter. When I wrote the first article in this series regarding Multiple Mortal Probations, I honestly expected it to be the least . He claimed, like so many others to have had an out-of-body experience. No wonder they were so arrogant. My only doubt was in me and the ability to live the gospel of Jesus Christ. Like another point of view on the same thing. I love how Heavenly Fathers plan for his children is so loving and allows us to learn and grow in our own way and at our own pace. However the spirit worked upon me and I was reminded that my biggest question as a child was Where did God come from? I used to spend hours thinking about it even until my brain hurt. I believe even to the point that if I see an extra dark effort to oppose something then it must be very significant. Eric, thank you so much for this wonderful essay. Some have accused those who believe this doctrine as seeking Bruce R. McConkie 1915-1985. Thank you again for bringing more clarity of the Great Plan to light. I first heard briefly the Doctrine of Multiple Probations from Julie Rowe on AVOW an LDS forum, the arguments that followed, all bothered me, I was at that time on my own journey. Some awesome people have been excommunicated. This process answers many other gospel centered questions. Laman and Lemuel Were a Religious Product of their Day, The Right to Expression in the Kingdom of God, Light & Law #1 Two Laws For Every Kingdom, Women, Priesthood, and the Awful Monster of Traditional Belief, The Outer Vessel of King Noah and His Priests. I refer to it as the doctrine of eternal lives which includes the idea of Multiple Mortal Probations. We will be free to choose to be with those we love, who also want to be with us. kindness from cruelty, and so on. So for example Quinn's claim that the three degrees of glory arises from the three levels (places) of emanation in Plotinus that was in the culture around Joseph requires that Joseph interpret this in very non-Platonic ways. He taught Church history and doctrine for many years at Brigham Young University.He was also the director of the Latter-day Saint historical collection in the Harold B. Lee Library.. It felt right to me but the opposition was so strong and vociferous I proceeded with caution. I asked the spirit and he said only once before. Thank you for sharing your witness Cheryl! I will ponder about it and ask Heavenly Father. presence which left him fallen to the ground, he was able to declare to Thanks for sharing! JS taught many times that Michael stood next to Christ in authority, and he also taught that Elohim was the head of the Gods (i.e. Who do I end up with ultimately in the celestial kingdom? Oh how I love you and Julie and all that I have learned from you both!! I thank you! This is not a final conclusion by any means, but this strikes me as Joseph Smith trying to get to his next level of understanding and thinking some of his own thoughts on certain things short of getting a definitive revelation on the subject. What follows is a thesis on the controversial doctrine from the 19th century referred to as multiple mortal probations, which fell out of favor along with Adam-God. It indicates, "Click to perform a search". This concept was taught by early LDS Church leaders. various sects of Christianity as a true and practical doctrine, as evidenced by Because we are told this is the time for men to prepare to meet God, Yea behold , I find I am perplexed it seems we are being told in more than this scripture, that THIS TIME is the time from which we attain our eternal status, NOT THROUGH OUR OWN TOTAL EFFORTS, but from our leaning on the atonement of Christ. Another point on this, it is said in the bible that men like Adam, Methuselah, and Enoch were men who became perfect in their generation. How tragic! I have learned for Whether or Not the LDS Church Could Fall into Apostasy; . It makes wonderful sense when you consider how merciful and how loving our Savior Jesus Christ is especially when we are gifted with agency both pre and post mortality. . These secret teachings coincided with teachings by Joseph that either explicity stated or implied that previously resurrected beings, essentially from a prior earth, could interact with mortals on this earth. Thomas asks if Zulema, Melanie Gibb, Lori were "very active" in the LDS Church. I must continually ask myself the question, Who am I to believe that Gods work is dependent on my understanding, teaching and attempting to enlighten the unenlightened? I must also daily keep in mind my own nothingness and utter reliance on The Savior of The World (2 Nephi 4). I believe that I am a child of a God, a child of a loving Heavenly Father and Mother with a divine heritage. (Some received only Godhood.) Answer (1 of 5): The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has a book called Preach My Gospel, which is an official guide for missionaries. There is just too much to experience for once to be enough. It is like a fractal of the whole thing. It was like having a deep spiritual sigh while being purged of a host of simplistic, faulty, misleading, worrisome beliefs I had never recognized were dragging me down. never considered the possibility of living multiple lives, many are judging the And they who remain shall also be quickened; nevertheless, they shall return again to their own place [the telestial kingdom where they now live], to enjoy that which they are willing to receive, because they were not willing to enjoy that which they might have received.". As is common knowledge, the trio of beings who participate in the creation in the temple are Michael, Jehovah, and Elohim, and these possibly represent JS' conception of the Godhead. Just being made perfect from the get-go isn't something special. Some say this scripture suggeststhat a person might be able to leave the telestial glory experience another life on earth and then return to the telestial glory. Hi Diane! Agency took on a whole new meaning. Apparently, Laub wasn't the only who understood the King Follett Sermon this way. I'm not going to do anything drastic, but, goodness gracious! That is there is a certain form that Elijah participates in as part of being a person. Thanks for sharing this interesting history. Thanks for standing up and witnessing even amongst the risk of severe persecution. and Eve could not know good from evil without partaking of both, which is Also, I didn't mention it in the OP, but I believe Michael Quinn documents an influential relationship between JS and Alexander Neibaur, who was a convert from Jewish Cabala and who related reincarnation-like Cabala sourced ideas in a couple of Times and Seasons articles during the Nauvoo era. What happened was that I would hear a name in my mind and immediately a person on the other side of the girl would introduce themselves and then they would thank me for helping them in their trialed, this was not for 1 probationary earth but many. Ive also watched your web materials with Julie. That one would be tempted to say this life is just too hard. There are many quotes of early LDS Church leaders who claimed the Prophet Joseph secretly taught a doctrine of multiple mortal probations. I would comment but feel it is too sacred. Hopefully they will trust in me enough to do so. Love you guys. And as the head of our creation under the Father, it is Jesus who will be head in the next creation the way the father is. Its like the chorus which follows the verse, giving the song power and unity. One lifetime and you are done feels like temporary progression. Great topic. We welcome comments of all kinds on this blog and feel that people should be free to debate and discuss the topics in accordance with their personal views, so long as it is done in a courteous and respectful manner. Im sealed to my husband. As many have The pursuit of the souls perfection seems somehow lighter, brighter, and more assuredly attainable. Blessings to all seekers. ABC News. visionary, who can discern spirits, or who possess extraordinary compassion, It's kind of like how in our times people will say stuff like, "What if the Holy Ghost is Heavenly Mother?" You know that the LDS church doesn't even believe in past lives, or "multiple probations", and there is a long list of other problematic ideas that Chad, Julie, Lori and the rest cooked up that is not in accordance to LDS doctrine. When I hear the term applied to people other than Jesus I immediately think of Mosiah 15 and not MMP. This teaching was perhaps even canonized as, "This is eternal livesto know the only wise and true God, and Jesus Christ, whom he hath sent. Is it not so, surely? (Moses 1). I know who you and I were in the past and I cannot wait to meet you in person. It is particularly comforting to realize that I can let go of the worry and anxiety of wayward children who have struggled to stay on the path, that this doctrine provides the hope that there is plenty of time, if they chooseto move forward in their ( or my own) progression. It is time to live in faith not fear. 2.3M+ acres, 1 in every ~550 acres of private land. nature. Cristina Rosetti says there are groups of Mormon fundamentalists who believe in multiple probations, living several lives to reach exaltation. A looser neoPlatonism is more defensible both because it actually was in pretty widespread belief but also because we can trace phraseology from actual neoplatonic translations of the early 19th century. There is a humbling reward in the sense of Fathers confidence in me, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. millions of people from around the world are part of the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints . I can see that in the spiritual world it goes way beyond any earthly graduate school I can imagine. Im so grateful for you, Greg, Matt and Julie for your conviction and witnesses of the Truth! Thank you for putting our thoughts into words of deeper understanding. Bruce R. McConkie was a member of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints when this fireside address . I have felt the Cleansing power of Jesus Christ through His Atonement. They will have to pay their debt to justice; they will suffer for their sins; and may tread a thorny path; but if it leads them at last, like the penitent Prodigal, to a loving and forgiving fathers heart and home, the painful experience will not have been in vain.. Do we all have to get crucified and possibly multiple times? He recorded, "But the holy ghost is yet a Spiritual body and waiting to take to himself a body as the Savior did or as god did or the gods before them took bodies for the Saviour Says the work that my father did do i also & those are the works he took himself a body & then laid down his life that he might take it up again." He does not want people to wake up to who they really are. 33:9. this life became a probationary state; a time to prepare, Alma 12:24. a probationary time, a time to repent and serve God, Alma 42:4. your days of probation are past, Hel. Rowe was excommunicated from The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints after . We often use this scripture to support the concept of a pre-mortal life, but we would have to assume that it is possible to commit a sin while there in a spirit state. What an incredible doctrine of mercy and hope! I love truth wherever it is found. Ever since first hearing the doctrine of Multiple Mortal Probations, I have felt peace in this knowledge. They also vicariously ordained Joseph and Hyrum to do the same. I too grew up knowing that Reincarnation was/ is a false doctrine, but also grew up in a culture that taught that those who made mistakes and took their guilt from said mistakes to their grave without repentance or forgiveness were eternally assigned to a lower Kingdom of Glory, only to be visited by friends and family members in higher kingdoms. When I first heard this doctrine I felt a rush come over me that is hard to understand and explain. I continue to rejoice and find joy in seeking and discovering truth. Each new day begins with the Sun (Son), providing a fresh beginning from the previous days follies and experiences, and yet, we continue to build upon those previous experiences. to do for Him in the past is a great motivator for similarly serving Him in the i.e. Both Brigham and Heber were indoctrinated in the principles and I suspect others, particularly W.W. Phelps. Even if I lived to be 100 years old I am quite certain I will not know everything God knows. Behold, great and marvelous are the works of the Lord. . Some say that they dont believe in do overs. Some people have said that the church teaches this doctrine and that it is called Eternal Lives (plural). First, one reason for living in multiple probations is to complete work started in earlier lives. Further, Mormon doctrine asserts that people can become gods. Kim, that is a very insightful point that would seem to be a witness Of truth hidden in plain sight that if reincarnation is a false doctrine, that there must be an opposite, which I feel my spirit was first introduce to in the temple. Thanks for commenting.
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